Gresham Calls Caspian/Susan Kiss ‘Nonsense’
ChristianityToday has posted an interview with Douglas Gresham (co-producer, Lewis’ stepson). You can read it here.
There is one part of the interview I would like to comment on:
CT: There were early rumors that Eustace, after he becomes a dragon, would fight with the sea serpent. That’s not in the book.
Gresham: Some folks were attracted by the idea that the dragon—Eustace—would earn his redemption by having a huge fight with the sea serpent. But I don’t think that earning one’s redemption is possible. It’s a free gift from Jesus. So that scene is not in the movie. That was a nonnegotiable point for me. [Since this interview, CT has seen the film, and would contest Gresham’s assertion that the dragon Eustace doesn’t have a “huge fight with the sea serpent.” Looked pretty huge from our seat.]
Putting this in context, and keeping past reports in mind, it seems much more likely that Gresham was not denying that DragonEustace fights a sea-serpent. Rather, he was saying that the idea of Eustace earning his redemption was removed from the film. We already know that the writers originally wanted this, but Michael Flaherty (Walden Media president) set them straight (report).
The most interesting part of the interview is when Gresham talks about the controversial kiss between Caspian and Susan at the end of Prince Caspian. He mentions an interview he did with NarniaWeb where he famously advised fans to worry more about global warming than a C/S romance. “I knew there wasn’t going to be a romance,” Gresham says, “but I wasn’t going to say so.” CT mentions the kiss, and Gresham responds: “[…] I agree that it shouldn’t have been in the movie; I think it was nonsense. But it wasn’t something I was going to dig my heels in and scream and bite the carpet about.”
Thanks to ‘Jo-Anna/johobbit.’
Wow, aren't you a sweetheart? 😛 Firstly, that comment was blatantly tongue-in-cheek. Maybe you might want to consider lightening up and quit coming out swinging over every tiny comment a purist says? Secondly, how do you know what kind of job he would do? Seems a bit disrespectful to assume he would be an incompetent director.
Again, I ask you, if he found the kiss "nonsense", why didn't he state his opinion as such when assuring everyone how great the film was? Is that really such an awful question to ask? I don't see how anything I've asked is unreasonable, or inappropriate. Do you want interesting, open discussion of these issues, or is this a Douglas Gresham Fan Club? Again, I respect the man, I just think he's open to legitimate criticism, and I wonder why any attempt to do so is always met with such aggressive derision at Narniaweb, instead of addressing clearly stated, respectful points. Alas…
The aggressive derision is due to the fact that there's a select few people on this site who take any criticism of anything to do with the movies as personal attacks. They then proceed to personal insults and snide comments about the intelligence of the person expressing the concerns. Then it all gets topped off with a lament (usually badly spelled and in all caps) over the "complaining" the opposite side is doing, apparently willfully blind to the fact that their entire post/comment has been a complaint.
What I'd like to see is at least one of these books… just one of them… to be adapted to the big screen COMPLETELY FREE of any changes, side plots, side themes, new, previously unheard of characters or anything else that was not in the book.
I would like to see someone come along… a TRUE follower of Clive Staples Lewis and these books in particular and put a production together that actually allows the transformation from page to screen EXACTLY the way he had them.
I don't want to see any additional side storylines, new characters, side plots (e.g. "The Kiss" or the Peter/Caspian … rivalry?).
I basically don't want to see ANYWHERE in said film where some kind of "compromise" was made so that the "general audience" can "enjoy it." I want to see a movie that the true fans would want to see.
I WILL say that it seemed (to me) that LWW was done VERY well when comparing it to Lewis' written pages. There were a few small things that were off, but they were REALLY small (Lucy telling Mr. Beaver that their house was "Lovely" whereas Susan does it in the book). That stuff, I looked past. However, with PC, it seemed to go much further off the deep end with some themes that weren't ever meant to be there and others that seemed to be left out (Peter to Caspian: "We're not here to take your throne, but to put you in it").
Aren't there enough true fans of C.S. Lewis out there that they would want to see this? Is it truly possible, or is it a pipe dream?
To be fair, I believe I stand in the minority. I think I was the only one our group that did not make a disgusted noise when viewing at the PC Lion Party.
Well i think most likely that is why he was let go after the fact, but i do think that they should have put their feet in the sand about this. I know how hard it is because clearly Gresham worked hard to get most of the romantic scenes out of the film, but it is still an overwhelming part of the character development of Susan and Caspian in this film in my opinion and i think he should have said there can't be any added romantic scenes.
I know how hard it is though when you think it is a give and take and that he had to give them something, but i disagree with that To me no extra romances, Eustace does not earn his undragoning, and Aslan's divinity are lines in the sand and really it seems they have all be crossed which is why the films are no longer Narnia.
You know i am fine with all of the structural changes in the film, but not the character changes. Susan, Caspain, and Aslan just aren't the same people in PC at all and it seems that in VotDT Aslan may not be himself again. I will wait and see on that. Just a week to go.
I usually just lurk here, but I thought that I would like to reply to Non-Negotiable's somewhat sarcastic and feisty comments ("Lord High Gresham" and all the defensive, combative comments about the posters here on Narnia Web, etc.).
"Again, I ask you, if he found the kiss 'nonsense', why didn’t he state his opinion as such when assuring everyone how great the film was?"
I'm going to assume that you have only read the post here on Narnia Web and not the article itself, because Gresham essentially answered this in the actual interview. He says that he thought the kiss was "nonsense" but that he also thought it was insignificant in the larger scheme of things. Thus, as a small, largely irrelevant point in his opinion, it wouldn't have affected his opinion of whether the films was "great" or not. He says that he saw the religious and moral elements of the book as the key things that he needed to defend, and little "silly" things like the kiss were not as important in his view. So, as he makes clear, there is no contradiction between his seeing the kiss as "nonsense" and the film as still great.
"Either he has a significant role, and he’s failed at it, or he doesn’t and, thus, his reassurances are meaningless."
This is an unrealistically black-and-white view of things. This just isn't how real life works. Gresham has some power and influence, but is not the be-all-and-end-all. Movies, by nature, are collaborative efforts. I would think that would be obvious.
Why have I got a feeling that you have never had a job where you really have to work with other people? In jobs like that, it is very rarely simply a case that everything or nothing you say goes. Typically, everybody working on the project expresses his or her opinion, and compromises are worked out. Gresham has staked his positions more on fighting to keep the moral points of the story–fine, but if he demands his way on those issues, he will have to give in on other points that the director and screenwriters and other producers want. This doesn't mean that he has no influence, it merely means that he's not the only one working on this film!
Gresham fights for some things from the books. He wins some, he compromises on others. Why is that hard to understand? After all, I have a strong feeling that these movies could have strayed much further than they already have. We should just be grateful that there is anyone fighting to preserve the key points of the stories, even if of necessity he can't successfully force his opinions on the cast and crew all the time.
You make it sound like you think Gresham is lying when he encourages people to see the films. Just because he disagrees with certain points doesn't mean that he secretly hates the films but is lying to get people to go see them. I hated some of the changes in the Lord of the Rings, but I still loved the films and recommended them to others. And no, this comment is not an attack on you, although as highly defensive as you sound in your posts ("I’m certain the pitchforks are being sharpened, and the torches lit," etc.), I'm sure you'll think it is.
I also haven't seen the film yet. It is just that like this article says there is a big battle with a sea serpent right before Aslan changes Eustace back. A week to go though and then we can discuss this further. I just doesn't look good to me.
Go Dough, stand up for the faith your Father wrote into his books! Can't be earned, it is a free gift. The Kiss on the other hand, well…. now Caspian is a flirt, 'cause he's gotta marry the star girl whose name we never fined out.
I kinda agree with you, but for screen purposes, some things need to be cut, just nothing needs to be added. Also I think that both LWW and PC strayed from the book in an unacceptable manner. They need to get a real fan of the book to come an make the rest, THEY SHOULD NOT MAKE THE LB IF THEY ARE GONNA CHANGE IT, THERE IS WAY TO MUCH IMPORTANT STUFF IN THERE TO BE MESSED UP.
I agree, the kiss between Caspian and Susan was complete nonsense.
I agree with you, people are too inconsistent, He either needs to be more firm, or stop jumping wagons when its convenient. Gresham may have some influence and he should use it better the film, not appease the audience.
I see people have a lot to say about this, but I'll try to keep my opinion short and straightforward. I'm very glad that Douglas is standing up for his faith and also staying true to the books and his father. Redemption is a gift from Jesus, it is NOT something we can earn in any way. As for the Caspian/Susan kiss, I agree with Douglas that it is nonsense but we don't need to "dig my heels in and scream and bite the carpet about.”
i totally agree on you with that. i was like "whoah, wth it is, this should have been happening at the first place" when i saw it. I think this scene was deleted.
i mean shouldnt.
I understand what " Non-Negotiable Comment " was trying to say. He or she has a valid point. However even if Gresham felt this way during the process and promotion of PC it wouldn`t be wise to say so. Who would bad mouth or criticize the director and writers choices publicly during the very time of a movie`s marketing campaign?! If he wanted the film to do well and have the franchise continue he would keep his peace whether he approved of their choices or not. It is debatable as to how much input he really has.
I felt the kiss was unnecessary. However it doesn`t bother me as greatly as everyone else. That`s just me. I think filmmakers wanted to appeal to teen-aged girls by offering this romantic element. Since PC is so battle oriented they wanted to provide an outlet for female movie viewers to enjoy. From that stand point the choice makes sense. If they insisted on adding it then they could have done a better job developing it. Oh well..that`s either here nor there. Since the project is over and done with.
PC wasn`t all that bad. It`s funny and a bit sad how filmmakers and actors constantly remind us how VDT is liken unto LWW. It feels like their trying to make us forget PC ever happened. At least that`s the feeling I get while watching the interviews.
I agree with glumPuddle about Adamson. He shouldn't of been hired.
Well said, Michael
There are a lot of valid points in your post. I think that both are true: Gresham is the guardian of the books, but he also knows it would be unwise to constantly force the filmmakers to do what he wants to do.
I think sometimes Gresham simply makes it known that he doesn't like a particular change. Other times, he demands at least a compromise. And then on some, he puts his foot down and says "No!" It just depends on how significant the change is.
I think of Gresham's presence as a necessary evil. It would be nice if the filmmakers could honor the spirit of the book without needing Lewis' ghost standing over them with a stick… but those don't seem to be the filmmakers we have. These filmmakers want to do things like having Eustace earn back his redemption…and Gresham (and others) are needed to put them back on track.
Sometimes, when I picture all the filmmakers in a meeting room, I imagine the people who love the books arm-wrestling the people who just want to make the most commercially viable product possible. It's a constant struggle of the film wanting to go the commercial direction, and a few voices (Gresham being the biggest) having to try to hold them back. Doesn't sound like a very creative environment for an artist.
You're right. The best thing to do is to let the director put the kiss in, and then let the movie bite the dust with disappointing box office results and thumbs down reviews. That way the message will be clearly communicated that audiences want C.S.Lewis' storytelling, and NOT Andrew Adamson's storytelling. Many Narnia fans that I know thought the kiss was ridiculous as well, and despised Adamson's perversion of Lewis' classic story.
Not only does the kiss spit in the face of the idea that is so fundamental to all the books, but the kiss (and the romance) was very poorly directed.
I like watching movies that have romance in them (like Amazing Grace) because the romance is directed very well. But Adamson's directing on the Prince Caspian romance was so poor, cheap, and cheesy.
It made me cringe – not just because it wasn't true to the book, but because it was so awkward due to poor directing (and the fake Spanish accent made it even more awkward).
Agreed. I think *some* of the book purists on here tend to get a little carried away. If you pick apart every little minute change from the text, you are sucking all the joy out of these movies and basically spoiling everything for yourself.
The kiss was fine. And it took up about 2 seconds of a 2 and a half hour movie. Please.
in fairness, I've seen similar attacks come from a similarly small proportion of die-hard book fans…
Way to go, Caspian XI. 😉
We're pretty much on the same page, here.
Having a romance between Caspian and Lucy, while at the same time having a romance between Caspian and Ramandu's daughter would be very much like a James Bond movie, because in every Bond movie there's always two women. Maybe that's why they chose a director who directed a Bond movie.
While I agree with your point in terms of the kiss and the fight, I disagree in terms of the accent- it was an artistic decision, meant to give the world more depth and ultimately it helped in making Narnia come to life. I beleive the accent, is one of those additions that even though it wasn't in the book, it still remained loyal in a way to its source…
Well, let's all just back up a few points…
When a book becomes a movie, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of one that was exactly like the book. Let's also keep in mind that these movies were BASED on the book, and for unwriten movie rules, a movie really would be incomplete without a romance and, when everybody sines (sorry for any spelling) on to do a 'based off movie', they are given the power to change whatever they want.
Over all I think that the movies were excellent, even with the plot changes simply because it works for the movie, not the books, but the movie
You took the words out of my mouth, well said!
I agree that the Susan/Caspian kiss wasn't the best idea but I wouldn't say AA should not have been hired, he did do a very good job with LWW.
You said it exactly, Glumpuddle. That is the strongest and most overlooked argument against Suspian. Sure, maybe the romance had it's sweet moments…but it so twisted the themes of the books. It really wasn't worth it.
yeah, he is using his advantage of authority to ensure that the movie stays true, and that is WONDERFUL.
What angers me is that he has to fight these Hollywood people so much to keep at least some things true to the book.
Actually, Lucy's 12 in VDT, but I agree with your point, since Caspian is about 19-20.
Amen! If there were a romance between them, I'd sue the director. But I like what Douglas Gresham said. And I'm glad he didn't make a big deal out of it even though I truly hateed the romance between Susan and Caspian
Yes!!!! But I would have screamed and bite the carpet!!!!!
I Liked Suspian! BAM! What Now!
I do like the C/S romance, but the accent and the castle raid i could have gone without.
The whole Telmarine accent was almost annoying from some of the actors…
But i'm a sucker for romance (NOT Twilight ick) but fairytale stuff.
Although, i think the kiss was unnessecary…Romance yes, kiss then abandon the guy no.
And there should have been more Edmund. Cuz he was barely in it. that really dissappointed me, and by the looks of the dawn treader stuff skander is a really good actor who should have been given more lines in PC.
I totally, totally agree!! Thank you for saying this!! I can't stand C+S, but one of my best friends here on NW is a huge fan of C+S! I don't know how many times we've talked about how much hate she garners PERSONALLY from C+S haters. Seriously, C.S. Lewis would be very sad, I think, to see how much flaming goes on around this issue. I agree in thinking he wouldn't be happy about the romance, but I think he'd be even less happy about the dispute.
Keep your opinions people, but quit getting at each others throats over it!
Whoops, I think my computer messed up… This is _not_ the post I clicked reply to. Sorry!
*gasp* Oh no, yes it was! Holy cow, could someone delete this comment and hand me a cup of highly caffeinated coffee please? XD
Ok, ok, everyone, let's not blow this out of proportion. I think we all agree that the Suspian romance was unnecessary, but that's just the way the movie turned out. It's been 2 years now, and overall, PC was a good movie anyway. I'm not trying to sound "grown up," like someone said, and I'm not trying to make this controversy more than it is. However, I think most of us are just devoted and concerned readers who simply want a good, true to the book movie. All we can do is hope that VDT is the best one yet, and move on.
Umm…Caspian is 16 and Lucy is 11. Edmund is 13, Susan is 15, and Peter is 16. Does anyone know how old Aslan is?
I'm with you on that.
I love how douglas gresham is still a good part of the making of the movies.
For me i didn't like the C/S romance, sure i see why the put it in but i don't like it. Plenty of my friends think it ruin the movie I don't know if your one of them but for me I loved the movie. The book Prince Caspian for me was boring. so the way they did the movie was good. Yes ben could have dropped the accent in Prince Caspian but i'm just glad he isn't doing it for VDT. and the castle raid was really cool for me. I don't know what other people think but I really Like Prince Caspian aside from the kiss
I see what you mean about Doug not getting every single thing he wants for the movies. but you don't have to rip out on Narniaweb. they just want to get people like me information about the newest narnia news wether it be for movies or books.
And I really think that Douglas does what he can. Some directors can be really hard. And I think Douglas does what he can.
THAT WOULD BE SCARY!!! I mean there is friendship in it but not romance thank goodness
I meant to put between them
I can not believe that everyone is arguing over a fake kiss, that didn't affect anyone's real lives, and was about .5 seconds long. Really people, drop it. Do you all understand how riducuous you sound?
I actually liked the movie more than the book. I read the book twice and watched the movie about 20 times.
lets give the moviemakers a pass as they probably wanted the ages a little older to be able to get better acting out of them( case in point- check out the heinous acting in the bbc version). Can you imagine those performances being released in theatres today? its expensive to make this stuff- 300 million with production and marketing i heard
can it still be found somewhere? i couldn't find it, i'd like to read it-
Umm… Technically there was no romance between Caspian & Lucy — At least I don't think that there was any. I think he was just glad to see her and Edmund back in Narnia. As for Lucy, she was a girl trying to grow up, she's at that point in her life where she was just trying to figure things out. It wasn't a bad thing if she was crushing on Caspian, but I don't think it would go anything further than that. I'm sure she was well aware that Caspian could and would never see her more as Lucy, Susan's little sister. The way I see it, Caspian probably consider her more like a little sister as well…
gotta pander to the touchy non-christians in the audience of today….(and that's not includng you "non-touchy" non -christians) although i personally would have taken a "Passion of the Christ" approach and amped up the christianity then plead with the churches to show up- look at how POC did! 400 million for an independent flick? they could have been exactly true to the books-
I agree- as someone who purposely didn't read the book before the PC movie (so i wouldn't be aggravated by changes)and as a non biased viewer- the romance aspect was barely noticeable, and that tiny peck was just a sweet surprise- as an adult viewer I felt it fleshed out the movie and make it more complete and well rounded, to balance out all the head -bashing. I really enjoyed it and wished they had pursued the idea a bit more, actually. Add a little more character development in a movie that basically had NONE (just a bunch of crabby people traipsing around)–I agree the direction of it was clumsy, it could have been so much more, and having susan be so bitchy all the time- i didn't even pick up on her attraction to him till repeat viewings.The kiss seemed to come out of left field-I thought they needed the archery scene to establish the attraction more- And" logically" – I cannot see how you could have Ben Barnes standing next to you and not have even a hint of attraction- he looks like a model , for Aslan's sake!
yeah, i was caught totally by surprise too- especially with how cold she acted towards him for the whole movie- if she was trying to portray she was playing it cool with him, she really should have been coached by the director that she was being too understated. The acting by most of them was WAY too understated IMHO anyway- the whole movie's personality just seemed so cold- like they were totally different people- compared to the LWW
I don't believe the kiss was nonsense. Not at all. 🙂 I loved it, and I still love it. I very much preferred this movie to the book, and Suspian was just icing on the cake. 🙂
AGREED! LONG LIVE ASLAN!!!
Hurrah for Douglas Gresham! Way to keep the best line in the book in!
I wouldn't exactly label it "fighting", but a literary discussion with passion. CS Lewis and his buddies had literary discussions and heated disagreements all the time, for entertainment and intellectual stimulation.
Wow, Two years later and were having an argument about it. O well, heres what I have to say.
I hated that at the end caspian was so corny! "I wish we had more time together!" In a spanish kind of accent, that was sooo cheesy. I didn't really see were they got to know each other. other than looks and smiles mostly.
Yes the kiss might be nonsense but… you have to admit it was kinda sweet.
But On the other hand. I bet they could of done it a bit differently.
I Agree that Caspian Should of had Awe and trying to actually believe that myths came true, and I wish that peter and caspian did get along and make some sort of friendship. but what do you expect there boys, and they have close personality's. But the movie is more interesting than the book I have to admit. PC is my least favorite out of the seven. So the Directors had to do something to make it more interesting.
Overall I Love The Movie and have watched it hundreds of times. 🙂