Gresham Calls Caspian/Susan Kiss ‘Nonsense’
ChristianityToday has posted an interview with Douglas Gresham (co-producer, Lewis’ stepson). You can read it here.
There is one part of the interview I would like to comment on:
CT: There were early rumors that Eustace, after he becomes a dragon, would fight with the sea serpent. That’s not in the book.
Gresham: Some folks were attracted by the idea that the dragon—Eustace—would earn his redemption by having a huge fight with the sea serpent. But I don’t think that earning one’s redemption is possible. It’s a free gift from Jesus. So that scene is not in the movie. That was a nonnegotiable point for me. [Since this interview, CT has seen the film, and would contest Gresham’s assertion that the dragon Eustace doesn’t have a “huge fight with the sea serpent.” Looked pretty huge from our seat.]
Putting this in context, and keeping past reports in mind, it seems much more likely that Gresham was not denying that DragonEustace fights a sea-serpent. Rather, he was saying that the idea of Eustace earning his redemption was removed from the film. We already know that the writers originally wanted this, but Michael Flaherty (Walden Media president) set them straight (report).
The most interesting part of the interview is when Gresham talks about the controversial kiss between Caspian and Susan at the end of Prince Caspian. He mentions an interview he did with NarniaWeb where he famously advised fans to worry more about global warming than a C/S romance. “I knew there wasn’t going to be a romance,” Gresham says, “but I wasn’t going to say so.” CT mentions the kiss, and Gresham responds: “[…] I agree that it shouldn’t have been in the movie; I think it was nonsense. But it wasn’t something I was going to dig my heels in and scream and bite the carpet about.”
Thanks to ‘Jo-Anna/johobbit.’
As much as I DESPISE the kiss and think it totally flies in the face of everything Lewis was trying to do thematically with Prince Caspian… I think Gresham made the right call to allow it. It seems like he made his opinions on the kiss very clear but Adamson really wanted it.
You can't hire a director and then start telling him what he can't do. That's creatively asphyxiating. The key is to hire a director you trust and then let him do what he wants to do.
Nice to know Gresham doesn't agree with the non-sense that WE all don't like either 🙂 (first :P)
Wiglaf
No biting the carpet, but there was a fair share of weeping and gnashing of teeth. 😉
Was totally ok by me overall.
this just gave me more reason to love mr. gresham 😀
Well, what is done is done. Just be thankful Luspian(screams)is NOT in Dawn Treader.
Yes, thats very true. While He does have a right to disagree with what He (Adamson) wanted to do, He very well couldn't have done much about I suppose :/. Its just too bad that Adamson choose to make that choice as a director of the movie, thus ruining a good deal of the original message of PC.
Is soooo interesting to see his views on the kiss, like, 2 1/2 years later lol. I loved this interview though, very… blunt? Down to earth? Informative? LOL ty for posting it =)
It's wrong. To Caspian, Susan is a figure out of his bedtime stories. Queen Susan the Gentle from the ancient past.
One of the key themes in the Narnia books (PC especially) is "the myth becoming fact," which Lewis famously talked about in an essay. This is the idea that converted Lewis to Christianity. Caspian's awe upon discovering that his heroes (Susan included) are real reflects Lewis awe upon discovering the "myths" of the Bible were true.
In the film, they set up a Caspian/Susan romance without ever setting up Caspian's awe. Caspian's first reaction upon seeing Susan should have been awe. Instead of it was "whoa, she's hot."
This idea is SO fundamental to all the books, and the kiss spits in its face.
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, that would have been kinda weird seeing as she is suppose to be 15 in the movie, and King Caspian an Adult lol.
Nice analysis, glumPuddle.
Thanks for saying that! I agree. While I absolutely loved PC (a little bit more than LWW, I have to say), the only part that disappointed me was "Susaspian." However, it was, in the end, AA's call, and he made it. I know there's plenty of us book-lovers who were, to say the least, unhappy about that, but I guess the general movie-goer liked it. It was cinematically well done (in my opinion).
I have to agree with you in this point.
Ugh, that reminds me of that old leaked script from 2 years ago…wow, that brings back memories. That was one scary script (for us book-lovers. It might have made a good movie [possibly], but it would not have the right to say "Based on the Voyage of the Dawn Treader, by C.S. Lewis").
I disagree. I don't think he made the right call. They should have tried to find a new director because the kiss as well as the dumbing down of Aslan's divinity makes it clear to me that AA didn't get it at all.
I am not convinced at all that it isn't going to seem like Eustace is earning his undragoning. Everything we have heard has looked very bad to me. Aslan might not say it, but still. Show and not tell.
I think people on here try to sound so grown up! Although I am getting close myself, I like the aspect of romance in Prince Caspian. I think it made the movie more interesting, and have a little back storyline.
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!!! Susan and Caspian were totally out of character in that part of the movie. The kiss ruined the end of the movie for me.
As for the Eustace stuff…I'll have to wait and see for myself before I make any comments. Although I do like what Gresham said about the redemption stuff! 🙂
having seen the movie I can tell you that there is a fight, but it isn't clear one way or another weather this means he 'earns' his redemption. some may see it that way, but it's not very strongly suggested. and gresham has just earnt even more of my respect, for disagreeing with su/casp, and at the same time recognizing AA was in authority.
Hehe! Me too! 😉
I feel like not only was the Caspian/Susan romance unnecessary, but it also seemed out of place and underdeveloped (if it had to be developed at all). It didn't really develop much until the end, and when they kiss, it's like, "Whaaaat??? They like each other that much??" There wasn't much time given to them falling in love, and then to kiss in front of a huge crowd like that when they knew they wouldn't marry anyway….. A hug would have been more appropriate. Oh well. Glad to know Mr. Gresham thinks it's nonsense too. 🙂
I do know that they were buddies!
Mostly agree with you. I do think he had some awe (along with being attracted to her.) I also agree with the kiss not being in there, but I would have rather had the deleted scene with the archery contest than the kiss. The archery scene was at least based on the book (albeit loosely and with a lot of flirting). But I'm glad that it wasn't the 'central' theme of the movie, just a few longing glances, and a sweet kiss, and that's it. If I really wanted to argue it's usefulness (which there isn't basically) one could *almost* say that it sets up for Caspian's marriage. Again the romance was basically stupid, but it's there, and we deal. I've finally become ok with it.
I am tired of people complaining about Suspian. I'll say this, and then I'll shut up. I support Suspian and I used to despise Liliandil, but then two months ago, I realized that this whole "conflict" between Suspian fans and Lispian fans is pointless. I want this to stop (it's been TWO years, guys!), but before I get yelled at and possible get "banned" from NW, I will say this and shut up: I think the kiss was necessary… for the movie, but not the book.
In the books, it went from LWW to HHB. In the movies, it went from LWW to PC, skipping HHB. I think that slight romance between Susan and Caspian was necessary, because it explained in HHB that she was very beautiful and was courted by many princes, especially Prince Rabadash. But they didn't make HHB into a movie after LWW, so they added that slight romance (and the kiss) into PC to show how Su and her siblings had grown up, and they were no longer as young as they were in LWW; therefore, it shows that Susan had grown into a beautiful young woman, and that some men are attracted to her.
In that guide to the Voyage of the Dawn Treader book by Devin Brown, it said this in the introduction (talking about the kiss), "…What about the film's famous kiss? While in Lewis's original, Caspian and Susan never kiss or even hold hands, can it be argued that Andrew Adamson was keeping with the spirit of the Chronicles in adding this kiss? Perhaps…" (then it talks about Su in LWW and HHB then Caspian with Liliandil in VDT).
"…Andrew Adamson had modest-sized books that allowed him to expand and extend some elements. A wonderful illustration of this expansion in the first film was the way we were shown the bombing raid on London, which was the catalyst for sending the children to the professor's. So how can we judge whether these expansions or additions are in keeping with the spirit of Lewis's original? If we look at the present and not just in the book itself, but in the other Chronicles as well, we can decide what might have been in character for each of the protagonists. While we will certainly disagree on some minor elements, we may expect to agree on the major ones. For example, no one has suggested that Edmund should have done any kissing!"
So that was were I got most of the idea. And also according to Mayor Wilkins's comment (http://www.narniaweb.com/2010/11/another-video-new-footage-and-plot-spoilers/comment-page-1/#comment-30609), "I think we all need to remember that films and books are different things. Things that work in the book will not necessarily translate well onto film. …There will be changes to every book adaptation you will ever see. The credits say "BASED ON the book by C.S. Lewis" for a reason." I agree with him. In books, you have narrators telling what the characters are thinking or feeling, but in the movies, they don't. Won't it be a little annoying having a narrator narrate on almost ever few minutes of the movie? That's why the characters have to act it out, so things would be expressed differently in the movie. Would you like to hear a narrator's voice in PC saying, "Susan grew into a beautiful young woman and back in the Golden Age, she had many suitors." No. So instead of that annoying narrator's voice, they put in that little romance and the kiss to explain it.
It's not that big of a deal, really. I think it was necessary, especially to people who haven't read the books. Maybe they didn't read LWW or HHB and read that Susan was known for her beauty and many men asked for her hand in marriage. The romance in PC shows how Susan, along with Peter, Edmund, and Lucy, had all grown up. They were no longer those children in LWW. They've grown. So, yes it was quite unnecessary for some of you, but if they made HHB after LWW, then there might've been no kiss in PC. But since they've been doing the "Pevensie trilogy" first, it was necessary to put that kiss scene in PC.
So there's my view. Argue all you want, criticize me, yell at me, delete this post- whatever! I just want to say this to try to make a point out. If I'd made this point out a few months ago, it wouldn't have been very pretty. But I have grown myself, and I realize this is a pointless topic to argue on. "What's been done is done." It's been two years, guys. Come on! Let's stop looking back at the past and look at the future! VDT is just next week (today for some countries), and then if it's a success (which I'm positive it'll be), there'll be SC, then MN, HHB, then LB! Long live Aslan! Come on guys, we could all agree on this! Aslan is awesome, and so is Narnia! We're all Narnia fans, and I don't think we should have problems between us just because of some kiss scene in PC. Come on guys, can't we just forget about this? I'm sure there's a lot more topics about Narnia that we could talk about besides this whole kiss scene.
Seriously! It's been two years!
There were some changes in PC which needed to be made and some which were completely and utterly stupid.
The changes which needed to be made:
– The change of order. It wouldn't have worked if the four leads didn't appear for HALF the film.
The changes which were completely and utterly stupid.
– Random castle take scene. A lot of the second half of the book was changed around too much and it was way longer than it needed to be therefore it dragged on.
– Suspian's romance. At least someone acknowledges that the romance was nonsense. THANK YOU DOUGLAS GRESHAM!
LOL Gresham is such a cool guy, he's almost impossible not to like!
And he's right, and I don't just think that because of the reasons in the comments, but also because Susan was *moving away* from Narnia and this really kind of brought her closer to Narnia; I just don't get WHY they would want a romance? It was fine without that. Probably just to make a connection from the horn.
I will say this to a suspian and then I will shut up. Most Suspians make it so easy to start conflicts. The reason why there is conflicts is because that slight romance and that kiss didn't belong or should have ever been thought of in the first darn place. Believe what you want to believe but that wasn't AA's intention on why he added that stupid wasting kiss!!!!!!!! AA reasons was basically because the actors are both gorgeous and had nada to do with the story one bit!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So of course there's conflict. If i was the stepson or stepdaughter of a famous writer I'd be mad about this kind of change too! the whole suspian thing is uncalled for because it wasn't a thought out process.
First off, they are currently making the movies in the same order that books were written. LWW was written first, and PC a year later. HHB a few years after that. The books have since been re-numbered. So your argument doesn't hold up. Lewis did not feel the need to establish how desirable Susan was to princes when he wrote PC, so why should the filmmakers?
But either way…Which of these points do you think is more important?
1. Caspian is awe of Susan. She is a figure out of myth and legend.
2. Susan was beautiful and many princes desired her.
The first point is FAR FAR FAR FAR more important. It is CENTRAL to what Lewis was getting at when writing Prince Caspian. You seem to be arguing that they sacrificed the most important point in the entire book because they wanted to convey a rather insignificant point.
I agree with Douglas Gresham: The kiss was nonsense.
Can we start a petition or something to get him to direct all future films? He's pretty much awesome and actually likes the books. All we hear from everyone else involved in production is how uncinematic the books are and thinly veiled digs at Lewis.
I agree that we should. Even though I'm starting on my ideas for a remakes. i'd love to join your petition!
I have been fairly spoiler-free for the past few weeks…so you can take or leave this…
But based on what little I've read, I don't think it will seem like Eustace earned back his humanity.
I think the scene will not miss the point, but it might lessen the power of the point. I'll get back to you in about a week…
YAHOOOOOO!!! i just watched Narnia 3 VDT 3D yesterday, December 3 in SM Mall of Asia cinema 3 here in The Philippines! ( wow!that's a lot of 3's there huh! Lolz! ) THE EXPERIENCE WAS AWESOMEEE!!! i just hoped that its also available in IMAX ..for sure it wil b a one of a kind adventure. For me, Will Poulter is the best actor! He did portrayed the character of Eustace very well…In some shots of Ben, he looks like Jake Gylenhall in Prince of Persia..but he looks so handsome! Especially Skandar..he is so good looking! The major plot change is in Narrowhaven.. Just check it out! What i didnt like is the special effects when the green mist took the slaves in the ocean.. The special effects is not convincing for me… The Dragon is so cool! Especially when he met Aslan… The most touching part is when Aslan is speaking to them in the end part of the film.. But i think Georgie's acting is not that good on that last part.. I think i want to see her cry and sob more, Reep is also cool! Nice job Simon Pegg! 😀
One could argue that *for the movies* Susan drifts not only because she doesn't believe in Narnia, but also because of a failed/doomed romance. Therefore, she gets into materialistic items and starts becoming "vain."
Gresham has no directing experience as far as I know. What makes you think he could handle a huge film production? Very few people are able to do that.
Thank you Douglas Gresham! I still wish you could have fired AA's tush for adding something so ridiculous, but I guess what's done is done. I really hope that the filmmakers on VDT will do something between Caspian/Lilliandil to overpower and surpass a romance that doesn't exist in these fine narnia stories.
There were a number of reasons I mostly liked the Night Raid as a fan of the book.
In the book, Lewis mentions several battles Caspian had with Miraz. It would have taken far too long to do all of them, so they combined them all into one big battle. Much more cinematic.
And, just like the book, it ends with the good guys being at their lowest point and realizing they need to seek help. In the book, that help is the horn. In the movie, that help is Aslan.
It also emphasized one of the most important ideas in the book: The sadness of the old days being gone. The fact that the Night Raid ends so violently is a wake up call to both Peter and the audience: This isn't LWW! The old Narnia has passed away…and it must be restored.
The Night Raid is an example of using a change to honor the spirit of the book in a more cinematic way.
And the Serpent is so terrifying! Tilda is as good as ever! Love her! Overall im happy with the film.. One thing though.. I think the soundtrack of the film is not as good as what Harry Gregson did for the past 2 films… And also i didnt find the film to be that very 3D-ish… But its fine… But what i really appreciated was in the end credits, white Carrie's song is playing, we are shown the pictures of Pauline Baynes art drawings for the VDT book, it was so cool! Whew! What an experience! Im sorry if giving spoilers here … Lolz! IM LOVING NARNIA MORE AND MORE!!! ;-D
Here we go again… *whinces from the inevitable to come*
That point aside… I rather liked this interview…Gresham seems like he'd be a cool person to meet 🙂
I'm really starting to respect Douglas Gresham. I always have, but the things he's been saying lately have been great! Suspian=nonesense, the "resident nuisance". Awesome!
What's done is done. Adamson was hired, and by the time the idea for the kiss came up, it was too late. Firing a director in the middle of production because of one decision (although a really significant, terrible one I admit) would be absurd.
You could say this shows they should not have hired Adamson in the first place. This is a valid argument.
The night raid was a great add, though I would have preffered it before the PEvensies met PC.
While I personally don't care for the Caspian/Susan romance, I don't think it's right for people to start throwing stones at each other and calling names and fighting about it. To call people "Suspians" and "Lispians" is starting to sound like church divisions, and yet it's not a matter of eternity and doesn't help anything. Of course, everyone may have their own views and feel strongly about it, but there's no need to be nasty about it in either direction. Not everyone needs to hold the same opinion as we do, especially because the argument won't matter in eternity. While I'm pretty sure C. S. Lewis would have disliked the Caspian/Susan romance, I don't think he'd approve of all the flame-throwing. I don't think Jesus does either.
Just my two cents. 🙂
For fun and to answer your question gp the 1st one sounds to be the legit choice AA should have gone with. caspian XI the attraction Caspian/Susan had would be the same thing if you had a romance with a Bibical prophet. It's out of place and down right dirty!
Well said, Glumpuddle! I kind of liked the night raid because it brings out how they could not win the battle without Aslan's help… they went in without his guidance and help, thinking they could do it in their own strength, and they failed. I think it also shows what selfish pride (Peter and even Caspian too) can do. The only thing I didn't like about that part was the stereotypical "You killed my father" thing (where Caspian confronts Miraz). It's okay for Inigo Montoya, but I thought it was kind of unnecessary in PC. 🙂
Yes agreed! Whole-heartedly!
The kiss was just part of an attempt to grab the regular everyday moviegoer….it's always been like this with movies from books, things are watered down or changed to draw people in that haven't read the book….sad really. I didn't really care for the fact that AA made Caspian have that awful accent in PC either…the kiss and the accent and the whole fight in the tube station….all watered down to appeal to everyday moviegoer….but then most films tend to have the 'sophomoric' sequel slump. VDT is however really more along the lines of LWW….the vibe is pretty much different than when PC came out….I wonder if it's the Christmas season, that definitely makes this movie a lot more attractive. Sorry for the ramble….
….I agree that the film may weaken/water down the point of grace and redemption.
It couldn't be worse than what we've gotten from the experienced directors. 😛
^ Very True!
Wow yesterday I saw the film and it's amaaaaaaaaazing! REALLY I think it's the best. All of them are very young yet, but the comparing with the first film…
Aww they are so cute!
I'm lucky that the Dawn Treader premiere was yesterday in Spain…
Mr. Gresham is very adept at saying what the fans want to hear… AFTER THE FACT. The kiss was nonsense? Oh, really? Did he ever mention that when he was SELLING the film to us? No.
“Take your friends, take your family, and even take your enemies!”
Years later, when he's trying to sell ANOTHER film, he's suddenly rushing to join the consensus that most people considered that moment "nonsense". OK.
I realize that even the slightest criticism of pretty much anyone (especially the Lord High Gresham) on this site is grounds for immediate scorn and derision, but I just cannot believe the free pass you people give Mr. Gresham over and over and over again. On the one hand, all I ever hear on Narniaweb is: "Mr. Gresham has no power to make significant changes. Stop blaming him for the films' faults." OK, that's a perfectly legitimate point that I would be willing to accept. EXCEPT THAT all I ever hear from Mr. Gresham is how he's The Guardian of The Legacy, constantly putting his foot down over "non-negotiable" points. Non-negotiable points, I might add, that still, in one form or another, tend to slip past his constant vigil, apparently.
This is not a personal attack against Mr. Gresham, although I'm sure it will be seen that way, and I'm certain the pitchforks are being sharpened, and the torches lit. The truth is, he can't have it both ways. Either he has a significant role in approving the content of these films, and he's failed consistently (not completely, but consistently) in that regard, or he has no significant role, and his reassurances mean nothing. I'm sure he's a decent man, and a committed Christian, and he loved his step-father very much. Those are all qualities I greatly admire. Unfortunately, none of that gives him legitimacy, in my opinion, to be an assuring voice representing these productions. Particularly when his candid opinions surface long after the box office has closed.
She's not actually supposed to be 15. She is supposed to be 13 in the movie. It's Georgie who has just turned 15, but she filmed it aged 13-14.(In the book she is 10.)
But your point is even more valid this way.
I don't know who you are, nor whether you were a NarniaWeb member in the months leading up to the release of any of these films. However we spent a lot of time and effort to let people here know what was coming up, what we knew about changes and interpretations, and so on, and ran every possible interview we could find or do.
If you weren't here, or chose not to read this material, I'm sorry.
I can also suggest to you that it is a bigger world than you thought, and that how movies are made is a more complex game than either of us could play.
Please take care how you describe Mr Gresham – keep it respectful please.
I think people are being way to serious about it also. Most of you talk about it like it should become the third testament of the Bible or something.
I agree. I think people are taking this way to seriously. It's fiction people. It's a novel with fauns, centaurs, minotaurs, merpeople, goblin, etc. The 21 curses of Revelation aren't going to fall on us for not going by the book.
Bookwyrm, that statement couldn't be more ignorant. I love Gresham, but the movies would be as crappy as the BBC series if he directed it.
Hello, coracle. I think my comment was entirely respectful. Which, of course, is why it irritates you so much. It's not his personal character I'm addressing, merely the conflicting evidence of his efficacy. I believe that's allowed under the rules here? Oh, why, yes, it is! Your response (which I greatly appreciate and thoroughly respect, also as per Narniaweb rules) completely ignores the gist of my comment: Either he has a significant role, and he's failed at it, or he doesn't and, thus, his reassurances are meaningless.
Which do you think, my dear?
You know nothing about what you talking about. Douglas Gresham said he does his best to stick by the book, but sometimes he has to form a compromise with the writers.